Interview with Roger Waters: �It�s a duty for artists to speak out�
Frank Barat
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A conversation with Roger Waters
Phone interview recorded on 4th December 2013 By Frank Barat for "The Wall has ears" Listen to full audio version of interview here.
Frank Barat: When did
you make the decision to make the � Wall tour � (that ended in Paris in
September 2013) so political ? And why did you dedicate the final
concert to Jean-Charles De Menezes ?
Roger Waters: The first show was October 14th 2010.
We started working on content of show with Sean Evans in 2009. I had
already decided to make it much broader politically than it had been in
1979/80. It could not be just about this whinny little guy who didn�t
like his teachers. It had to be more universal. That�s why 'fallen loved
ones� came into it (the shows are showing pictures of people that died
during wars) trying to universalise the sense of grief and loss that we
all feel towards family members killed in conflict. Whatever the wars or
the circumstances,they (in the non western world), feel has much lost as we do.
Wars become an important symbol because of that separation between 'us
and them,� which is fundamental to all conflicts. Regarding
Jean-Charles, we used to do Brick II with three solos at the end and I
decided that three solos was too much, it was boring me. So sitting in a
hotel room, one night, I was thinking about what I could do instead of
that. Somebody had recently sent me a photograph of Jean-Charles De
Menezes to go on the wall. So he was in my mind and I thought that I
should sing his story. I wrote that song, taught it to the band, and
that�s what we did.
FB: A lot of artist
would say that mixing arts and politics is wrong. That their goal is
only to entertain. What would you say to those people?
RW: Well it�s funny you
should say that because I just finished yesterday the text of a new
piece which will be a new album of mine. It�s about a grandfather in
Northern Ireland going on a quest with his grandchild to find the answer
to the question: "Why are they killing the children?", because the
child is really worried about it. Right at the very end of it, I decided
to add something more. In the song, the child tells his grandpa: "Is
that it?" and the grandpa replies "No, we cannot leave on that note,
give me another note". A new song starts and the grandpa makes a speech.
He says: "We live on a tiny dot in a middle of a lot of fucking
nothing. Now, if you�re not interested in any of this, if you�re one of
those "Roger I love Pink Floyd but I hate your fucking politics", if you
believe artists should be mute, emasculated, nodding dogs dangling
aimlessly over the dashboard of life, you might be well advised to fuck
off to the bar now, because, time keeps slipping away." That�s my answer
to your question.
FB: When will album be out?
RW: I�ve got no idea. I�m
working away furiously on lots of old projects. I�m going to give a
first listen to this to Sean Evans. He�s coming to my house tomorrow to
listen to it. I�ve made a demo which is one hour and six minutes long.
It�s pretty heavy I confess, but there is also some humor in it, I hope,
but it�s extremely radical and it poses very important questions. Look,
if I�m the only one doing it, I am entirely content. I mean, I�m not, I
wish there were more people writing about politics and our real
situation. Even from what could be considered extreme points of view.
It�s very important that Goya did what he did, same for Picasso and
Guernica and all those anti-war novels that came out during and after
the Vietnam war.
FB: You�re talking about
yourself being one of the only one, in your position, taking radical
political positions. When it comes to Palestine, you are very open about
your support for a cultural boycott of Israel. People opposing this
tactic say that culture should not be boycotted. What would you answer
to that?
RW: I would say that I
understand their opinion. Everybody should have one. But I can�t agree
with them, I think that they are entirely wrong. The situation in
Israel/ Palestine, with the occupation, the ethnic cleansing and the
systematic racist apartheid Israeli regime is unacceptable. So for an
artist to go and play in a country that occupies other people�s land and
oppresses them the way Israel does, is plain wrong. They should say no.
I would not have played for the Vichy government in occupied France in
the Second World War, I would not have played in Berlin either during
this time. Many people did, back in the day. There were many people that
pretended that the oppression of the Jews was not going on. From 1933
until 1946. So this is not a new scenario. Except that this time it�s
the Palestinian People being murdered. It�s the duty of every thinking
human being to ask: "What can I do?". Anybody who looks at the situation
will see that if you choose not to take up arms to fight your
oppressor, the non violent route, and the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions (B.D.S)
movement, which started in Palestine with 100% support from Palestinian
civil society in 2004-2005, a movement that has now been joined by many
people around the world, the global civil society, is a legitimate form
of resistance to this brutal and oppressive regime. I have nearly
finished Max Blumenthal�s book Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel.
It�s a chilling read. It�s extremely well written in my view. He is a
very good journalist and takes great pains to make sure that what he
writes is correct. He also gives a voice to the other side. The voice,
for instance, of the right wing rabbinate, which is so bizarre and hard
to hear that you can hardly believe that it�s real. They believe some
very weird stuff you know, they believe that everybody that is not a Jew
is only on earth to serve them and they believe that the Indigenous
people of the region that they kicked off the land in 1948 and have
continued to kick off the land ever since are sub-human. The parallels
with what went on in the 30�s in Germany are so crushingly obvious that
it doesn�t surprise me that the movement that both you and I are
involved in is growing every day. The Russell Tribunal on Palestine was
trying to shed light on this when we met, I only took part in two
sessions, you took part in many more. It is an extremely obvious and
fundamental problem of human rights which every thinking human being
should apply himself to.
FB: The scary thing is
that the extreme Rabbinate you were talking about with the extreme right
wing views about the Palestinians and the non-Jews are having a more
and more prominent place in terms of the Israeli society, regime and
power structure and that is very scary.
I wanted to follow up on
the Cultural Boycott and about the fact that you are one of the only
ones who take such a stand. You could, as many others do, I guess enjoy
the benefits of your success and lead a quiet, at least politically,
non-controversial life. Why do you do it but more importantly why do you
think not more people are doing it? Why a lot of artists who often take
position against wars, why don�t they touch Palestine?
RW: Well, where I live, in
the USA, I think, A: they are frightened and B: I think the propaganda
machine that starts in Israeli schools and that continues through all
the Netanyahu�s bluster is poured all over the United States, not just
Fox but also CNN and in fact in all the mainstream media. It�s like a
huge bucket of crap that they are pouring into the mouth of a gullible
public in my view, when they say "we are afraid of Iran, it is going to
get nuclear weapons�". It�s a diversionary tactic. The lie that they
have told for the last 20 years is "Oh, we want to make peace", you know
and they talk about Clinton and Arafat and Barak being in Camp David
and that they came very close to agreeing, and the story that they sold
was "Oh Arafat fucked it all up". Well, no, he did not. This is not the
story. The fact of the matter is no Israeli government has been serious
about creating a Palestinian state since 1948. They�ve always had the
Ben Gurion agenda of kicking all the Arabs out of the country and
becoming greater Israel. They tell a lie as part of their propaganda
machinery whilst doing the other thing but they have been doing it so
obviously in the last 10 years . For instance, even after when Obama
went to Cairo and made that speech about Arabs and the Israelis,
everybody was like "Oh, this is a step in a new direction at least". But
as soon as he visited Israel, they said. "Oh by the way, we are
building another 1200 settlements". Exactly the same when Kerry went
last year saying, "Oh I am going to try to get the sides together and
talk peace". Netanhayu said "Fuck you. We are going to build another
1500 settlements and we a going to build them in E1, this is our plan."
This is so transparent that you�d have to have an IQ above room
temperature not to understand what is going on. It is just dopey.
You know I read some piece
the other day where it said "apparently only the Secretary State of the
United States, believes that these current peace talks are real, no one
else in the world does".
It is a very complicated
situation which is why you and I and all the other people in the world
who care about their brothers and sisters and not just about the people
of our own faith, our own colour, our own race or our own whatever, have
to stand in solidarity shoulder to shoulder. This has been a very hard
sell particularly where I live in the United States of America. The
Jewish lobby is extraordinary powerful here and particularly in the
industry that I work in, the music industry and in rock�n roll as they
say. I promise you, naming no names, I�ve spoken to people who are
terrified that if they stand shoulder to shoulder with me they are going
to get fucked. They have said to me "aren�t you worried for your life?"
and I go "No, I�m not". A few years ago, I was touring and 9/11
happened in the middle of the tour and 2 or 3 people in my band who
happened to be United States citizens wouldn�t come on the next leg of
the tour. I said " why not? Don�t you like the music anymore?" and they
replied "no, we love the music but we are Americans and it�s too
dangerous for us to travel abroad, they are trying to kill us" and I
thought "Wow!".
FB: Yes, the brainwashing works!
RW: Obviously it does, that
is why I am happy to be doing this interview with you because it is
super important that we make as much noise as possible. I�m so glad that
this right wing newspaper in Israel, Yedioth Ahronoth, printed my interview with
Alon Hadar. At least they printed it. Although they changed the context
and made it sound different that what is actually was but at least they
printed something. You know, I would expect to be completely suppressed
and ignored.
You know that Shuki Weiss(
preeminent Israeli promotor) was offering me a hundred thousand people
at hundred dollars a ticket a few months ago to come and play in Tel
Aviv! "Hang on, that�s 10 million dollars", how could they offer it to
me?! And I thought Shuki are you fucking deaf or just dumb?! I am part
of the BDS movement, I�m not going anywhere in Israel, for any money,
all I would be doing would be legitimizing the policies of the
government.
I have a confession to make
to you. I did actually write to Cindy Lauper a couple of weeks ago. I
did not make the letter public but I wrote her a letter because I know
her a bit, she worked with me on the Wall in Berlin which is why I found
it super difficult to understand that she is doing a gig in Tel Aviv
on January the 4th. apparently, quite extraordinary, reprehensible in my
view, but I don�t know her personal story and people have to make up
their own mind about these things. One can�t get to personal about it.
FB: For sure but you can
help them, I guess by what you are doing, by writing to them. You can
open their eyes because that�s what they need I think.
RW: Yes but if their eyes
were going to be opened they would need to either visit the Holy land,
visit the West Bank or Gaza or even visit Israel or any single
checkpoint anywhere and see what it�s like. All they would need to do is
visiting or, read, read a book! Check out the history. Read Max
Blumenthal�s book. Then say "Oh I know what I am going to do, I am going
to play a gig in Tel Aviv". That would be a good plan! (sarcastic
tone).
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